Page 286 of 849
Re: ↓ → qυιℓℓ & cαиvαs 【 αи σc нαиgσυт 】 ← ↑
Posted: May 24th, '11, 11:48
by Xaevan
The original fairy tales are much more sadistic than how Disney portrays them. Remember that Disney have to appeal to children as well, so they have to add more sparkly goodness into their works. :)
For the evil fairy, that one was actually quite obvious (to me) why they never invited her. I don't think it's because that they are bad politicians, no. In fact, it's all about the royal image. How would it look like to a commoner if the supposedly ruler of the kingdom invite a widely known evil sorcerer (say for this instance) to a sacred event? It might look like the King sides with this 'evil' party, something which I don't think if you were living in his kingdom at that time would react well to. That is one amongst other reasons.
Ursula actually never wanted the Prince in the fairy tale, it's more like she wanted Ariel to fail. She was playing with her prey. In the actual fairy tale, Airle did not get what she wanted at all. She jumped from the ship (where the wedding with the Prince and the other 'saviour' was held), and turned into bubbles with her sisters. In that tale, she together with her sisters made the contract together so Ariel could get her legs.
Re: ↓ → qυιℓℓ & cαиvαs 【 αи σc нαиgσυт 】 ← ↑
Posted: May 24th, '11, 12:30
by AliceON
.....................................
.............
...I hate it when my signature looks wider than my posts...
...so I'm making these posting formats to compensate the size...
...yeah...
...I do...
.. . Yes, I get what you mean... I've read an interesting article that women who write male homosexual relations dothis because they want love between equals. They are not interested in relations between weak women and strong men and want something about two strong creatures. But having created the idea they actually do fail at making both characters strong and so appear many females in the male body. Sometimes even both in the couple.
.. . I know both fairy tales well. XD I mean the original version. And I wouldn't call this sadistic... It's bound with the people's view on life and death and worlds of the living and the dead. And that's why there is no problem here. And not that the problem appeared in Disney's tales, no. But questions did. There are answers, of course, as in your example with Ursula. (That's the answer I know too, but though I agree with "playing with prey" I still wonder: why is it so important to fail ariel? Why does it matter to her at all? Is it in her nature to be serious about what she's doing and not give up due to lack of interest?) But I at least have something to ask. I do not have to ask why did Ariel save the prince (by the way from real mythology we know that mermaides did not tend to be so kind but in the movie we agree that they are good creatures - sparkly goodness and so on), I do not have to ask why the squirrels and deer love Snow White. Because I've accepted the game where it is ok to be good. Just good. That's why I want to know how about bad? This way they become interesting to me. Or at least have become when I was a child. Now I treat them a bit differently, but, coming back to the discussion of weak characters and my love toward the evil - these females showed strengh, independence, wit (mostly. when not - I lost interest), these were female characters who were active, they did not plead for "protect me, show me the way" things. And thus won my interest.
.. . Now about the evil fairy and the politics, you do sound reasonable but, unlike in other issues disculled, I can't agree. I guess this was not the first and only case when they had to decide whether to invite the fairy or to ignore her. So if they have been ignoring her for many occasions (weddings, dinners, funeral) why is it only now that she reacts? She does not appear with the words "I'm fed up with your disrespect, now get it!", so it's probably the first time. Probably. But if it is the first time, weren't they afraid of public opinion before? And don't they think that if they invited her it would appear more safe for their child? And why making a ceremony at all when they know what can this lead to? Yes, an important for the whole state day, I know, but notice, the evil fairy behaves as if it is obvious that she should be invited. I don't think a mafioso would care if not invited. A rough example, but I hope that'll do. But the fairy does act as if it is her business. So something makes me think the parents have made a mistake.
.................................
...................
.................................
........
Re: ↓ → qυιℓℓ & cαиvαs 【 αи σc нαиgσυт 】 ← ↑
Posted: May 24th, '11, 12:58
by Xaevan
Haha That is true. xD
That contributes to my dislike for many heterosexual stories for quite a long time because of how women were portrayed in a lot of them. Hence why I really can't stand those stereotypical uke types. I look for the more seme and seme kinds (partly why the chemistry of Superman and Batman appeal to me *cough* >.>), both are alpha male, strong, stubborn and prideful in their own ways, so it's interesting to see how they communicate with each other, especially when written by male writers.
Answering your questions, as redundant as they might be, because I like doing so. xD
I think for Ursula, it might be a bit of a pride issue. It's not so much being serious as the harboring feeling of having 'failed', in that Ariel got her happiness. I'm not sure if I come across this correctly, but Ursula strikes me as the type who likes to see others suffer, and Ariel's case strikes her more deeply to the core because she personally tampered with it.
For liking more villainous characters, I can agree with that reasoning and their appeal. Many of my favourite characters tend to be on the gray side of things. They accept that some things are bad, and understand the difference between right and wrong, but they will do bad for the sake of future goodness and such. I think they are usually categorised as "anti-heroes" these days.
Good characters could show strength too. Interestingly, the kind of strength I see in those kind of female leads are usually more passive and inward, focusing more on feelings, empathy and compassion (see animals and non-human's love for the lead). The kind of traits which appeal to you are intelligence and independence of a woman in a man's world. ;)
Also, there is the thing about these characters being written by men... I do know some of them find the kind of women who needs protection appealing. xD
With more questions come even more questions! :D
When did the evil fairy arrive in the kingdom? See, she might be new, we wouldn't know? If some random person appear at your doorstep going, "All hail! I am the almighty evil fairy. I am important and you better remember that!" you are so not going to listen to her. xD
In that, yes, it might be the royal couple's mistake of underestimating her, but more questions would brew up that way. It's a never-ending circle of questions.
\o\ /o/ \o\
Re: ↓ → qυιℓℓ & cαиvαs 【 αи σc нαиgσυт 】 ← ↑
Posted: May 24th, '11, 13:04
by Xaevan
@Mikael Hart:
Sorry, Mika, for 'decorating' your thread with long posts. It's an interesting topic of discussion. xD;;
Re: ↓ → qυιℓℓ & cαиvαs 【 αи σc нαиgσυт 】 ← ↑
Posted: May 24th, '11, 13:48
by AliceON
.....................................
.............
...I hate it when my signature looks wider than my posts...
...so I'm making these posting formats to compensate the size...
...yeah...
...I do...
.. . Never-ending cirle of questions is good! It makes the world move! XD
.. . I won't say the intelligence and independence of a woman in the man's world appeal to me because actually it's just independance and intelligence in general. I've seen weak men (one of them was my history teacher at university and deadly afraid of me...) and it's not a thing I like... Sometimes when I hear "men become so weak because women show more strength, women must stop this" I want to kill everyone. If men want women to be weaker why don't they just become stronger? Looks like some cheap self-affirmation, doesn't it? Though all those discussions about strong or weak seem very questionable... Does anything really changes? The form - might, but does the content? I don't hate "weak" people, I just respect "strong". Unless they do something unforgiven.
.. . I must have my tea. lol
.................................
...................
.................................
........
Re: ↓ → qυιℓℓ & cαиvαs 【 αи σc нαиgσυт 】 ← ↑
Posted: May 24th, '11, 14:16
by Xaevan
Sorry, I went into that context because of the topic of discussion. xD
That's understandable, I can see where you're coming from. *nods*
That argument's a little silly, given it was applied to older instances in the opposite situation before better views were argued. rofl
That is a fair question too. What constitutes strong, what makes a person weak? You can find very different opinions depending on the person's background and upbringing. :D
Enjoy your tea, Alice!
I better stop procrastinating and get to my work too. >.>
Re: ↓ → qυιℓℓ & cαиvαs 【 αи σc нαиgσυт 】 ← ↑
Posted: May 24th, '11, 14:22
by AliceON
.....................................
.............
...I hate it when my signature looks wider than my posts...
...so I'm making these posting formats to compensate the size...
...yeah...
...I do...
.. . Thank you and
good luck!
.. . Ah, never mind, it's just that I'm afraid to sound like a feminist. lol
Thought I might be one... Not sure. XD
.................................
...................
.................................
........
Re: ↓ → qυιℓℓ & cαиvαs 【 αи σc нαиgσυт 】 ← ↑
Posted: May 24th, '11, 14:28
by Xaevan
Thanks, Alice!
Oh, that's alright. I don't particularly care about 'categorisations'. I just like listening to other people's thoughts and opinions on things. I get to understand and learn more from different points of views I wouldn't have thought of otherwise. :D
I'm female too, by the way, and I'm perfectly alright with what you're saying. xD
Re: ↓ → qυιℓℓ & cαиvαs 【 αи σc нαиgσυт 】 ← ↑
Posted: May 24th, '11, 19:26
by Mikael Hart
Morning, guys! Man, I must've been really tired last night, because I see typos in my post. x__x They were made on my mule though, and I'm too lazy to sign on to correct them. You guys get the gist of it. XD;
Fairytales were originally told by word of mouth (literacy wasn't exactly a common thing among the poor then) so they were modified and interpreted differently depending on the story teller. We know of some people who gathered them up and retold them, modified to their views and that of their public; Perrault, the Brothers Grimm, Hans Christian Andersen are the ones I remember. There were others.
@Xae: I ship Batman and Superman too! :D Their interactions make me laugh; I've read and been told some good stories about them.
I don't go with seme/uke terms so much anymore; I mainly ask that the characters I RP with act like boys/men, and more importantly, as people, not some stereotype with a sex drive or a girl with a penis. XD;
After hearing Ursula sing "Poor Unfortunate Souls" one would think she's a little twisted and sadistic. I've always pegged her as the power-hungry type and Ariel was the bargaining chip she couldn't afford to lose. I think she had plans to use Ariel to get at Triton all along; the two are old enemies after all (or maybe just plain old and acquainted XD). I think that there's some bitterness in her after Triton banished her, if my memory of it is correct.
I like anti-heroes too! They have their own sense of justice and ways of doing things; kinda like Vino from Baccano!, and the Medicine Seller from Mononoke, Neuro from Nougami Neuro... huh, my favorite antiheroes are ones that Moi likes as well. XD I guess we both like antiheroes then, and it seems like we watch a lot of anime together that have them.
Hisoka from Hunter x Hunter is a villain I like (I have my share of them as well), and while he is pretty evil, he's got a bit more to him than that. Many times, he ends up saving the protagonist when he really doesn't need to, just because Gon interests him.
I'm glad you're enjoying the conversation, Xae. You know I like long posts; I make plenty of them myself. XD;
Re: ↓ → qυιℓℓ & cαиvαs 【 αи σc нαиgσυт 】 ← ↑
Posted: May 25th, '11, 04:34
by Nuke
Wow, some interesting conversation going on in here. I probably can't add to it, but for trivia sake Ursala was an enabler in the book version of the Little Mermaid. The Little Mermaid is a tale of verses self, there isn't a "bad guy" it's about the mermaid trying to find/gain a soul.
I've also read some interesting article as to why women like (and write) about homosexual couples, though this was specifically about Boy Love/yaoi. It seems to be a topic of curiosity and debate, however, the opposite isn't true. That is, no one ever wonders about girl love and yuri. I think that's rather unfair, we leave males relatively untouched in study.
I read that uke were suppose to be the replacement for the female character, but as the character is "male" the female reader doesn't judge or feel in competition with the male character. There's actually a blurb on a sociology site that says most readers like to read about male characters more- I may have mentioned that here before now that I think of it.
IMO Disney movies often have very similar, typical plots. Disney did reuse scenes in several of their animated movies. I think some Disney movies are cute and all, but I don't typically like what they teach socially, at the very least I question the continual reinforcement.
Twilight was terrible, but it's basically a damsel in distress falling in love with a badboy anti-hero from what I understood. I never read the books, but what I saw of it... it seemed like all the characters were silly and the romance was more like stalking.