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 Post subject: Re: THE MYSTERIOUS JELLYFISH DOMINATION ♡
Posted: Oct 23rd, '17, 12:35    


Mikael Hart

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Dude, Firn, I was kinda upset the first time I read that story. Poor mermaid! And wasn't it painful for her to walk when she was human as well? I just remember it being really sad for her.


@Chrizine: It's been a while, and the story wasn't memorable for me, but they mentioned something about a glass hill and climbing up it. It was (this) one. The only one of Levine's retellings that I remember well was Ella Enchanted (Cinderella), and part of that was because I read it multiple times.


Oh, and actually, talking to you all, now I remember that I do have a favorite fairy tale! It's a French one, (The White Cat), which reads a bit like a Beauty and the Beast crossover with Puss-in-Boots.

Basically, a king has three princes, and decides that the one who gets to be the next king has to bring him so-and-so object. The youngest meets a white cat, and the story goes on from there. It's not quite like either of the fairy tales mentioned in the previous paragraph, but you can see some overlapping elements.

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 Post subject: Re: THE MYSTERIOUS JELLYFISH DOMINATION ♡
Posted: Oct 23rd, '17, 12:56    


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Firn

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Now that you mention it, yes, I think this was how the storie went.
But I think these kind of stories might not be too bad for children - After all they are more realistic than Disney Fairy tales, or Children-eating Grimm stories. We don't always get the "prince", no matter the sacrifisies. Not that there is anything wrong with Happy Endings in stories. I prefer Happy Endings actually. Life is sad enough already. But regarding children and learning stuff for life / about life, it's probably the better lesson. Though, apparently that's not the lesson to be learned here. I am just reading up on it at the moment, because it got me interested, and it is the whole "scaring children into good behaviour" stuff again.
Aparently in the end, after she dissolves into sea foam, she gets to be a wind spirit with the promise to gain an immortal soul after 300 years and it says "But when we see a naughty or a wicked child, we shed tears of sorrow, and for every tear a day is added to our time of trial". So it's basically "If you don't behave, that poor mermaid has to wait longer for her soul".
:mcmeh:

I don't think I know the white cat, but Beauty and Beast mixed with Puss in Boots sounds kind of awesome. I can't seem to find any German version of it though, at least not by the author Robert D. San Souci (who seems to have written some really creepy stuff for children?)

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 Post subject: Re: THE MYSTERIOUS JELLYFISH DOMINATION ♡
Posted: Oct 23rd, '17, 13:02    


Mikael Hart

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Aha, that's true. Man, reality is harsh. I hope that parents who read to children would discuss the stories with them as well. Those lessons can be hard to take. I don't think we should scare our children into good behavior, though. Kinda messed up.

I don't know how original the White Cat is, since apparently the cover says it's French, but I've seen similar tellings --with the cat being some other animal instead. I really loved the version in the link though; I read it so often from my school library as a kid, then went and bought it as an adult. XD

The Cat (female) is a pretty badass character, if I remember correctly. The prince had slightly more of a distress role, if you could call it that, since it's the Cat who helps him out.

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 Post subject: Re: THE MYSTERIOUS JELLYFISH DOMINATION ♡
Posted: Oct 23rd, '17, 13:11    


Chrizine

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Mikael, the version of the glass hill you linked seems really similar to the one I just found (except more detailed of course) where I also saw the reversed cinderella theme in it :)

I didn't know the white cat either, but it sounds nice.

I agree that it's not wrong to also show children stories where there's no (or not a full) happy ending. They don't have to be terribly gory for that either.
I'm wondering though, I don't recall many stories that were so blatant about being about good behaviour, so maybe there's also variations on these parts? Like, what you just said about the "your bad behaviour affects the poor mermaid" sounds like it isn't really integral to the story and might just have been tacked on in some versions to purposefully make them more about making children behave. I could imagine such variations of other tales as well.

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 Post subject: Re: THE MYSTERIOUS JELLYFISH DOMINATION ♡
Posted: Oct 23rd, '17, 13:18    


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Firn

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Chrizine wrote: Like, what you just said about the "your bad behaviour affects the poor mermaid" sounds like it isn't really integral to the story and might just have been tacked on in some versions to purposefully make them more about making children behave. I could imagine such variations of other tales as well.
No, it's actually in the original version by Hans Christian Andersen.

Maybe we just don't remember these things, because we never noticed/understood the "lessons"? Like Grimm stories all have lessons, but I just remember finding them gross and scary. I don't even understand what lesson I should learn by some of the stuff? Don't try to rescue people or you'll go blind?" :mcshock:

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 Post subject: Re: THE MYSTERIOUS JELLYFISH DOMINATION ♡
Posted: Oct 23rd, '17, 13:25    


Chrizine

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Hm, that is interesting.

Maybe. They didn't do a terribly good job at teaching their lessons it seems :D Or maybe that is because we were brought up already very differently from the children at the time the stories were written down. Maybe they fit into their experiences better.
Hm, in Rapunzel I think the prince's blindness was eventually healed by her tears, no? I think maybe the lesson was something about him loving her for her inner beauty first when he couldn't see her and her love being so strong that it could overcome his injury. So maybe it was somewhat about accepting wounded and disfigured people as well, like "when your husband comes home from war and he's really broken you need to care for him and love him still"? That's not really a common topic for us anymore (at least not in this direct scenario) but it might have been at the time.
But I have no idea, I'm just wildly theorizing ;)

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 Post subject: Re: THE MYSTERIOUS JELLYFISH DOMINATION ♡
Posted: Oct 23rd, '17, 13:33    


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Firn

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Chrizine wrote: Hm, in Rapunzel I think the prince's blindness was eventually healed by her tears, no? I think maybe the lesson was something about him loving her for her inner beauty first when he couldn't see her and her love being so strong that it could overcome his injury.
Ahhhw, what a sweet idea, but I am pretty sure Grimm fairytales/lessons don't work like this. :mcheh:

I read it up and apparently, according to a research paper called ""Searching for Moral Lessons in “Rapunzel”" by the University of Hawaii, the idea is like this:
"Most important insights about Rapunzel is that she and her lover “act immaturely”. Bettelheim points out that the prince “spies” and “sneaks” around rather than speaking with Gothel, and that Rapunzel “also cheats” by not being forthright with Gothel . (...) Gothel may actually symbolize the need to control our sexual impulses. Cashdan also cites the importance of protecting children from “prematurely engaging in sex,”
It doesn't say anything about why in the end the eyes of the prince were healed though, but apparently after he goes blind, he wanders through the wastelands "for months" before he finds her and she heals his eyes. Maybe he was considered old enough for having sex by then? :mcargh: (Though by the time he finds her, Rapunzel suddenly has two children. I don't remember that part of the story at all..)
I think this lesson was really wasted on me. I am pretty sure I did not even know how sex worked at that time. :mcsmirk: But seeing as apparently people need to write reasearch papers to figure out the moral of grimm stories, I doubt many children really understand and learn anything from it.

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 Post subject: Re: THE MYSTERIOUS JELLYFISH DOMINATION ♡
Posted: Oct 23rd, '17, 14:46    


Chrizine

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Hm, okay, I didn't get that lesson it seems :D
I like mine better :D
Strange lessons through and through to us modern readers... But maybe the thing that makes fairytales still interesting to us nowadays is that it's so easy to interpret all kinds of meanings into them. There's so many retellings of the classic stories that examine modern issues while still somehow building upon the old tale, it's amazing :)

I remember her getting twins from him while he was wandering around blind! I didn't get what that was about at the time either, I think :D

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 Post subject: Re: THE MYSTERIOUS JELLYFISH DOMINATION ♡
Posted: Oct 23rd, '17, 15:10    


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Firn

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Yes, I liked your interpretation better too! :mclaugh:

But I think with fairytales it was more about making children "obedient", doing what the parents tell them and not about shaping them into better human beings. Because it is mostly about scaring you to do something a certain way because you are scared of the consequences otherwise. And if you only behave because you are scared, then you don't behave because you are a "good" person and believe it is the right thing to do.

Do you know the "Struwwelpeter" or is it a German thing only? It is the most scariest children book ever, like EVER! In the whole wide world! I remember that it freaked me out as a child. It was really giving me anxiety just looking at the illustrations. They were material for nightmares!

It was written by a german psychiatrist almost 200 years ago, but aparently people still think it's educational to children, even though the topics are so outdated. (Or at least did so in my childhood. I am not sure the books are still around, I surely hope not! If you want to give your child some mental issues, that's the book to give to them) I know I leraned absolutely nothing from it - or all the wrong things. Like, there is this child, the "Suppenkasper", who refuses to eat his soup and then he starves to death. (The illustrations! I will never get the images out of my head!) And that may come from a time when food was sarce and all you had to eat was stretched soup, I don't know. But in my childhood we never really ate soup. It was maybe an appetizer at best. And all I kept thinking was "Why do his parents only give him soup?" "Why do they let him starve? Do they not love him?" I was so confused! Not one single time in my childhood did I think "I must eat my food, or I will starve to death".
Lesson not learned, but traumatized for the rest of my life.

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 Post subject: Re: THE MYSTERIOUS JELLYFISH DOMINATION ♡
Posted: Oct 23rd, '17, 15:45    


memoriam

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Oh noo, I missed the talk about Grimms' tales? :qsob: /is too lazy to read back all of it

I've heard that the tales weren't even meant for children, but were for entertainment of adults. Then maybe they turned to be "lessons" for children to be "obedient". But what do I know, I just heard it somewhere, or maybe read it, I'm not even sure. Both seem legit to me x.x

Just reading your description of this "Struwwelpeter" gives me anxiety x.x

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