But what's nature telling women? To stay in the safety of the cave and protect the babies. Is this why they spend 90% of their time disparaging others, other women usually, ruthlessly mocking the coworker behind her back who wears too much eye-makeup? Is this why they love love love to see women fail and be humiliated?
as someone born with a vagina, i have never in my life have been interested nor have i ever personally engaged or even witnessed this nature to a large degree. like, at the very most my mother would tell me i should wear this or that, but this kind of pettiness i think is more telling of the people/culture you're around rather than anything to do with sex/gender.
literally none of my female friends are like this. and i think a lot of people can attest to the same thing. i think you're attributing the traits of a specific type of people to gender when it's probably much more likely that these women you're around are raised/socialized to be a certain way.
i grew up in my dad's shadow and could've cared less about makeup. i can count the number of times i've used makeup on half of one hand. i don't care about gossip. i don't care about any of these mean girls-esque things that honestly seem really, really cliche. occasionally people tell me this was their highschool experience, all the clique nonsense and whatnot, but... i, personally, didn't even know such things existed until after i graduated highschool.
i suppose it's worth mentioning that i identify as transgender, so maybe that has
something to do with it. but that doesn't account for the rest of the women in my life who... do not fit your idea of womanhood whatsoever.
but i also disagree on a second count: that men don't gossip, which i think is the implication you're going for here. it looks different than the way women tend to do it, sure, but if i had a nickel for every complaint my boyfriend has ever uttered about one of his friends, i would have amassed a small fortune. my boyfriend aside, my other male friends do the same thing. it's... not really all that different from what women do in my opinion, just stronger language is involved.
i mean, have you ever been on an anonymous image board like 4chan? that's pretty much peak male gossip culture right there.
At least bad male behavior makes sense to me. It's coming from somewhere you can measure and deal with and prevent. It's the woman-type of awful behavior that I find absolutely baffling and senseless. A man might want to destroy a man so he can take his stuff or eliminate a threat, but a woman seems to want to destroy a woman just for the sheer hilarity of it.
i'm failing to see the logic here.
A man might want to destroy a man so he can take his stuff or eliminate a threat.
can you please explain this in the context of mass shootings? partner homicides? because the only two things i currently understand as falling under "taking stuff" and "eliminating a threat" are theft and self defense, which do not account for all of the violent crimes committed largely by men.
i don't think that men are "worse," i think they're merely socialized to respond with violence first because society disallows/shames them for seeking help and expressing their emotions in a non-violent way. that much i completely agree with. however, you lose me when you speak of comparing these respective forms of 'destruction' as you say. you need to clarify what 'destruction' means here, because as it stands i'm not seeing a 1:1 correlation.
what i'm assuming you mean is that violence action that men take to "secure" their safety and belongings is comparable to women... gossiping? i don't... understand why you're comparing these two things at all. i think a more defensible take would be to compare violent crimes perpetrated by women, because women
do perpetrate violent crimes. they just do so in different ways due to being socialized a certain way or lacking easy access to weapons (firearms for example.)
additionally, you speak of 'prevention' but i don't understand what it is you mean to prevent.
a woman seems to want to destroy a woman just for the sheer hilarity of it.
i disagree. it's all power dynamics.
i think gossiping and whatnot is inherently stupid, but if there's anything i've learned from watching dumb internet drama, it's that there's a method to the madness— or at least a reason. because women are socialized to be more social, rely more on others and be more attuned to emotions, the locus of control and power is in their connections and relationships with others. taking the whole "men are genetically stronger than women" thing into account, this is a far more effective way to instate order and control when you don't have brute force to do it.
you plant seeds of doubt, you create rifts, you break people apart, then you can assume control by manipulating others to your side. trust is power. it's just politics on a smaller scale if you ask me.
==
anyway, i was going to address your opening post eventually so i guess now is as good a time as any. yokuutsu pointed out most of it already, but i wanted to add my own thoughts as well.
you didn't happen to watch
the red pill, did you?
i only briefly perused a summary of the major points in it but a quick google matches your bullet points almost one for one. not that it's relevant, i'm just curious.
Women Are Shit.
Hoo boy, what a cheap trick to get your attention! I don't mean it, but it is related to what I'm about to say.
i fail to see the point in opening with such a contentious title if your goal is to actually have a discussion about the issue. all this accomplishes is automatically putting people on-guard if they disagree with your statements.
★Did you know that men are 11 times more likely to die in the workplace than women?
i'm going to end up repeating what yokuutsu said, but men disproportionately take on high risk jobs. you will rarely find women in such fields because society and women themselves think that women cannot handle dangerous jobs that require high amounts of physical labor. so, more men in dangerous fields = more men die. it's as you said in reference to toxic gamer communities—
it's a numbers game.
and with the rest of the points, it's the same case.
i think this article does a good job of skimming the issue:
https://www.investors.com/politics/comm ... death-gap/
- In 2015, for example, there were 4,836 workplace deaths, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Of those, 4,492 were men, and 344 were women. In other words, men suffered 93% of workplace fatalities that year. This wasn't some aberration. From 2011 through 2015, men accounted for 92.5% of all workplace deaths.
so, you're right, men are more likely to die from workplace accidents. but you fail to go a step further:
- This huge gap has nothing to do with discrimination, of course. It has everything to do with the type of jobs men and women voluntarily choose to take.
In a chart on his blog, Perry notes that the most dangerous professions — logging, fishing, pilots, roofers, garbage collectors, and so on — are all dominated by men. Low-risk occupations — administrative support, health care, education — tend to be dominated by women.
these are voluntary choices made by men and women alike, because we're socialized to believe different types of jobs are "gendered." men are rewarded by society by risking their lives for "manhood" which makes them more likely to take on such dangerous jobs, while women will often be belittled and mocked for attempting to join a male-dominated field. this even happens in non-dangerous jobs, particularly in STEM fields which are male-dominated but with a growing percentage of women entering. i have many, many friends in the game development industry who can attest to this.
★Did you know 99.9% of combat deaths and casualties are men?
https://diversity.defense.gov/LinkClick ... ortalid=51
this document is from the office for diversity, equity, and inclusion, which is a government agency in the US. i've copied the chart on page 2 for your convenience.
https://i.gyazo.com/1c12ad083ca25de5a4f ... ef20d1.png
men are disproportionately represented in the army, shown in blue. so, naturally, if most of the military is male, most of the casualties will also be male. i feel like this one's pretty cut and dry, unless you have a counterpoint.
★Men are 5 times more likely to commit suicide.
men are less likely to seek help before it's too late. this all leads back to the concept of "toxic masculinity" in which society teaches men it's bad to appear weak, bad to show emotion, bad to need help. i don't know what your point was supposed to prove? that men have it worse than women? because this particular point doesn't really prove anything without going into the reasoning as to
why this happens.
expanding on what yoku mentioned about completed suicide: i went and googled a little and found this tidbit from harvard:
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matt ... facts/how/
- How do People Most Commonly Complete Suicide?
More use a firearm (52%) than every other method combined. Suffocation (mostly hanging) accounts for 23%, poisoning/overdose for 18%, jumps 2%, cuts 2%, and other 4%.
Most nonfatal self-harm treated in the emergency department results from poisoning/overdose (64%), followed by cutting (19%). Less than 1% of nonfatal attempts are with a gun.
now, the source link on that page is broken, so i went and found an interactive infograph maintained by the centers of disease control and prevention, another government agency.
https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/
you can input the same criteria as me to double check, but here's the two screenshots i wanted to bring up:
suicides by females, organized by mechanism of death:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
suicides by males, organized by mechanism of death:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
so this is what yoku said:
I think this one is misleading. Men succeed at suicide more often through using more violent ways, such as a gun....whereas women tend to choose other means like pills....so they're more likely to be saved from a suicide attempt.
according to the data provided, this matches up.
★76% of homicides victims are men.
this article is from an international agency (i've been trying to keep to US-specific sources) but i think it does a good job of kind of summarizing what's really going on with homicides holistically rather than taking one statistic out of context.
https://www.heuni.fi/material/attachmen ... Gender.pdf
i'm not particularly well versed in this issue (well, none of these really) but maybe this article might shed some light on the context surrounding homicides:
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10. ... .2017.0016
- For the past four decades, nearly threefourths
of all homicides have exclusively involved men.
About 90% of all perpetrators are male, and about 81% of
their victims are male.
so, my point is that yes, mostly men are being killed by homicide, but men are also
committing more homicide period.
- Moreover, 78% of the victims of
female offenders are also male.
not to ignore this, i'll take a quote from the article's abstract because i'm really tired.
- According to Steffensmeier and Allan (1996, pp. 480), “For women to kill, they generally must see their situation as life-threatening, as affecting the physical or emotional well-being of themselves or their children.” Overall, it is often noted that males and females tend to see the utility of violence in radically different ways. Whereas men tend to employ violence as an offensive move to establish superiority, women typically view violence as a defense of last resort.
just to be clear, these statistics aren't overarching facts, but rather what was gathered in this particular study. without the context and source for most of your claims, it's pretty hard for me to believe them to be accurate, especially when i'm not being given additional information to explain why the percentages are what they are.
i'm gonna cut it here for now, but i'll probably be back later to do research on the last two points you mentioned.
to be perfectly clear, i for one don't even fully disagree with some your points, because i think that toxic masculinity
does make men suffer. but overall it honestly feels like you're trying to refute this strawman of an ideology that most people actually believe that "all men are shit."
This kind of dismissal of ALL men as shit (and indeed sometimes they outright say not just "Men are shit" but "ALL men are shit") is just so infuriating to me because obviously, many men are really really awesome, while many women are really, really shit. Humans are great, and humans are shit. I take people on a case-by-case basis, as should everyone, and these "feminist" people (men AND women) who are constantly enraged about anti-female sexism but then just casually and constantly proclaim that ALL men are SHIT, they're the worst kind of hypocrites and they fill me with rage.
you're setting up this argument based on something that is clearly not defensible, because generalized sweeping statements like this are never defensible by nature. i'd be VERY hard pressed to call anyone who sincerely believes all men are shit a good person, but on that same token i don't think a lot of these points you've made really delve into the meat of the issues they scarcely skim over.
Imagine girls are creating some kinda, I don't even know what this episode thinks girls are into since we scoff at FPS games (which I certainly play)... I guess, imagine they're making a game about unicorns and rainbows and lollipops where no one gets hurt and everyone goes to tea. (Hey actually I'd play that too.) So imagine a guy's working for these women and their pointless stupid female game, and in his free time he makes a super-masculine, gun-toting, murderer and imagine someone asks why and he says, "You don't know what it's like, day in and day out, choking in a haze of rampant estrogen!"
i take issue with one particular little bit from here.
So imagine a guy's working for these women and their pointless stupid female game
what about a "female game" is pointless and stupid?
is it the inclusion of "unicorns and rainbows and lollipops"?
why are these things "stupid" and "pointless"?
games are supposed to be
fun. that is the entire point of games. they are pieces of entertainment, so by definition they are
all pointless because they do not aid us in survival in any way.
why is it that "female games" are stupid?
what even makes a game a "female" game?
what about unicorns, rainbows, and lollipops makes them inherently gendered to be feminine?
are men not allowed to like these things?
isn't that idea contributing
more to to hurting men by deeming certain "feminine" things as stupid?
what if a man out there just really likes unicorns and rainbows?
where does
he stand in all this?
and then, what makes guns and violence
less pointless and stupid than a game about cooking, marketed for girls?
like... what is even your metric for quality here?
i am so, so confused. as someone born with a vagina, i've never been interested in "female" games. i love bloodborne, i love the darksouls series, i love a lot of the same things guys love. games aren't gendered, they're games? any anyone can enjoy a game. they don't even require being physically fit. if anything,
more girls should be playing video games if we're using biology as an excuse here.
furthermore, i think the snapshot you've provided don't account for the status of women in other parts of the world. i'm american-born chinese/khmer, and even being in a western country i had to face sexist confucianism in my daily life. men do this, women do that. such rigid gender roles are part of the reason why i'm trans, because the way i act and the way i see myself do not align with this archaic idea of what femininity is. i'm personally all for men being sensitive and women punching things, because that is what equality is to me.
anyway, i'll be discussing this post with my boyfriend and my (male) best friend, since they partake in masculine culture on a daily basis. it'll be interesting to see what they have to say about all this.